.png)
Carlos Granados Podcast
Welcome to the Carlos Granados Podcast. In this podcast, I will discuss my health journey, news, updates, and educational content surrounding my life, and anything and everything that I enjoy. This is my introduction to my new podcast through "Youtube Podcast". I decided to expand my horizons and let you into my life outside my health journey. You can watch clips and full videos in 4k on my YouTube channel "Carlos Granados".
Carlos Granados Podcast
Shicheonji Cult: Alejandra and Kevin's Journey from Cult Control and Deception to Freedom
Imagine being drawn into a world where your every move is controlled, and your beliefs are manipulated. That's the reality Ale and Kevin faced during their time with the Shincheonji group, a cult that uses deceptive tactics to recruit and retain its members. In this captivating episode, Ale shares her experience from the recruitment side, revealing how innocent invitations to Bible study classes quickly transformed into a labyrinth of psychological manipulation. Both Ale and Kevin talk candidly about the 12-month theology course and the extensive memorization required, which acts as a form of brainwashing. Their stories provide a raw look into the emotional toll and intense pressure of living under the cult's demands.
Kevin's journey through the hierarchy of this organization showcases a chilling narrative of control masked as spiritual guidance. The cult's teachings, with claims of biblical events taking place in Korea, are just one facet of its unsettling practices. Through personal anecdotes, listeners gain insight into the financial obligations hidden behind the promise of spiritual enlightenment and the sacrifices members are coerced into making. Kevin also recounts his struggle with the pressure to recruit others, driven by ultimatums and threats, which reveal the true extent of the group's manipulation.
Breaking free from such a controlling environment is no small feat, as Ale and Kevin's stories illustrate. They explore the emotional complexity of maintaining connections with those still inside the cult and the journey to reclaim their lives and faith. The episode doesn't just focus on the darkness of their past experiences but also highlights their resilience and the importance of personal freedom and authentic faith. Through their courage in sharing these stories, Ale and Kevin hope to warn others about the dangers of similar groups and inspire those affected to seek help and find their path to recovery.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Carlos Granados podcast For everyone who has been watching and listening. I appreciate everyone who has been subscribing, who has been following me on all the audio platforms. Remember that you can watch this video in 4k on my YouTube channel. And today, ladies and gentlemen, we are following up. Last time we had an episode we talked about a co-experience, specifically Kevin's co-experience, but today we have Ale in our podcast. That will be talking about the other side of the experience, which is the recruitment part, because you were really into the mix. So, before I start, welcome guys to the podcast. Welcome on to your first podcast, kevin. Welcome back. I don't think I've ever had somebody back to back in my podcast. So welcome guys. How are you guys doing?
Speaker 2:I'm doing good, I'm happy to be here and, you know, share my experience from the other side.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. What's up, brother?
Speaker 3:I'm doing good. It's like I can't wait to like actually discuss and ask questions.
Speaker 1:So, just to let you guys know, we really haven't discussed or really have planned what we're going to talk about. Necessarily, we do have an idea, but we wanted to make this as genuine and as natural as possible so you know we can have genuine reactions and genuine conversations, which I'm sure you guys will appreciate. So, ale, we heard of Kevin's experience last time and you know how he got into the cult, how he ended up finding out and also his experience. But what was your experience? Share that with us. Finding out, and also his experience. But what was your experience? Uh, share that with us.
Speaker 2:Um, and then also kevin, if you want to ask questions with you, know, ali, you can uh, because this is it's I know it's a whole process for, for all of us, yeah, yes, and it's kind of, you know, I would say when I remember when you first started the podcast and and you, I saw on instagram that you were like if anybody has a cool story, like just reach out to me, I would like to share it.
Speaker 1:I remember that post.
Speaker 2:And I hesitated because I was like I want to share this story so badly because a lot of people are interested in quotes and everything that goes down, because it's different kinds of course, and so I hesitated to reach out and I didn't. And then so, when I saw kevin's and I didn't, to be honest, quite frankly, when I reached out to you because I called you and, like, told you I want about finally, about me sharing my experience I hadn't finished watching the whole episode, but I already knew it was what it was because of the way he was describing it. I remember asking you well, what is the name of the cult? Because I didn't finish watching it by the time I called you and I said I need to finish it.
Speaker 2:So by the time as far as I got, he hadn't seen the name, but I already knew it was the same thing and it's kind of crazy because I lived the same experience initially. But of course I I lived the same experience initially, but of course I did join and I went far. Then I was there for three plus years.
Speaker 1:And for the people listening and watching, what is the name of this particular cult? At least I know it had several names, but what is it?
Speaker 3:Well, the ones that I knew was Shincheonji. But, you know, they don't tell you.
Speaker 1:That's a name.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the actual name of it and basically the Bible study has a lot of different names, that's what we discussed the Bible study itself.
Speaker 1:And what are some of those names?
Speaker 3:Well, mine was Journal to Heaven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mine, I mean, this happened to me like five plus years ago I know it has something, the light of something in it, but it does change at least once or twice a year and we're made aware of it and it's a whole like process right because we will like have to, you know, refer as the old names, because that's how the people end up finding out that it's a cult so that's the way that they hide it.
Speaker 2:They sweep the, swap the names, and that's not necessarily the name of the bible study, uh well, because there is. So I guess you are.
Speaker 2:This is the confusing part, and from being in it, I can tell you so right once you join a class, that particular class will have a name, like, for example, mine was the eternity and, but the actual church changes name. The classes are going to be different because that's the team you're going to join and it's a 12-month theology class and it literally is like being in college, but like harder, like you have to answer questions and I think you get tired of writing more than what you're actually writing because they make you like it's not like multiple choice, you had to write out the answer and memorize, and memorize, and that's the way you get brainwashed wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:so then when, when kevin joined, I remember you telling me, kevin, that they kind of brought you in with Bible, either the verses or wanting to know about the Bible, also maybe parables that they were using along those lines. So is that the same thing that you guys experienced? In that sense, ex?
Speaker 2:like my ex his mom. She asked me to join her for breakfast and she passed me a flyer about a two-week Bible study and she mentioned that, like my ex was going to join too and I was like okay, because I saw it as a way to bond with him, but also learn about god and I think I thought that was important.
Speaker 2:I mean a man of god, it was always important to me, so I joined like no hesitation. She didn't even have to like tell me or say or teach me anything at this point. Um, I've I felt like he could have, because so it was, it was. It all makes sense now that I knew what everything was, because I was not allowed to see him on Wednesdays and Sundays, and the reason being is they want you to get brainwashed first like little by little, so you don't quit immediately.
Speaker 2:So you feel guilty, you feel guilty. So he never let me joined, like watch service with him on Wednesdays and Sundays because he will watch surveys on on Zoom, but he never joined. Those were like the days we wouldn't see each other. And of course because and then I'd one time asked like where was um his pastor from? And he did say it was Asian. And that was a little weird because it was Christian Asian I kind of was like, yeah, it's a lady and she's Asian I was like, oh okay, but I didn't think anything of it. But I was not allowed to see him on those days and after I joined I found out why. So we ended up joining the two-week Bible class. That turned into 12 months and yeah, Was that something similar to your experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the two weeks is well for me. It was the guy that I saw on the street. So that guy was basically the one that well, the reason I even met with him was because supposedly he had a podcast was basically the one that well, the reason I even met with him was we supposedly he had a podcast. And he was like can't, let I just want to ask questions about you know christian's faith during coven. So he used the time of covet to basically like want to know how did young people's faiths were during covet. And then I'll, he was like you know, let's have you on the, I want to interview you for a podcast. And I was like you know what that's? Why not? That's sounds, sounds cool.
Speaker 2:It's so crazy that you say that because after I quit, like I still was, like they didn't remove me for a lot of like their groups, chats and stuff, because they use telegram. Telegram is known for no using like releasing your information to anybody, so that's what they use telegram. We used to use whatsapp for all our teams and our like secret groups and how we like recruit people and so on. Telegram, we'll like have all our groups like if we were trying to, for example, it would say christian, this, this, this is all your people, and whatever you were telling that person, they will screenshot it and send it to us too. We will, we basically will help him. Uh well, should his answer be to you so that you won't and they will call it so you wouldn't have earthquakes that's the word they use earthquake and they will make you like feel guilty or so that that you wouldn't um, you know, quit immediately. So we'll, we'll think about the right things to say.
Speaker 3:I could tell about that. Yes, I could tell, because these people would never respond right away.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it will be like screenshotted to us and we'll kind of all brainstorm on how to answer back to you.
Speaker 3:And that's how it felt no shot, I swear that's how it felt Because, like I told you, you see where she messed up at the end, where, like I told you, you see where she messed up at the end, where I told you that she said where did you hear that from? I know she messed up because she said where did you hear that from? And then she deleted it and she said no, kevin, what do you like? Why did you hear that? Or how did you?
Speaker 1:and I was like something's wrong she realized she messed up yeah, so essentially, what would happen then? So when you, when someone like kevin would a question, then that person, whoever that question was sent to, will reach out to you guys to see how you guys can answer that together for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it will be like a whole team of brainstorming of what will be the best way so that it will make sense to him, so that he will either feel guilty or think about it and not quit or think about it and not quit.
Speaker 1:So the point of making them feel guilty was to so they won't keep asking questions, or what do you? What did you feel like was? How did you feel when I felt?
Speaker 3:because the guilty part was kind of like you don't miss class so they used your guilt a lot to like because you know something. Like I told you, stuff happens and you sometimes you just can't make class.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:But, dude, the way they made you feel so you would not miss class was it was like you were disrespecting God and really like horrible.
Speaker 1:Like failing him, failing him.
Speaker 3:Right, and that's guilt. That's how I felt, or asking questions. I didn't really feel guilt in a lot of questions, but it's like the way they answered them was like you're doing so good, like these are the right questions and you'll understand them later on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, like I said, I stayed on some of those groups and I saw because by that time I had quit podcasts were becoming a thing and so I did see that they had started a podcast to keep to get people.
Speaker 2:I was able to like see, like all the planning that went behind that and it's crazy that you say that, because I, that was the the nest. We always were thinking of ways of like how to recruit people with them, with them to be, I guess, for them not to be hesitant and be excited about it.
Speaker 1:So can you give me an insight, alejandra, on how the structure is set up? You know when it comes to because I know you went, you were deep into it. But, for example, maybe the people that recruited Kevin like, is it like a leader in each state or, uh, county, how does that work?
Speaker 2:So um GNG specifically is in New York, chicago, the main centers and they actually have physical centers in New York. New York, orange County in California and um Chicago. And the one I particularly we I guess got recruited for West Chicago so I particularly I guess got recruited for was Chicago. So I did fly there a couple of times for their ceremonies and things like that.
Speaker 1:Oh dang. So then Chicago. Then it spread out to different states such as Georgia.
Speaker 2:How it works. Like you know how I got recruited. Now I'm in Georgia, I can have access to people in Georgia. So sometimes once you graduate and join it, it's in, you get given a number and it's like it's like filling, like how you a resume and that stuff gets put in there. It's called a book, the book of life, it's called put it, you get put in the book of life.
Speaker 2:And so I was so hesitant when I saw this number, because by this time I was only doing it for my ex. I was not doing it like because I wanted to, so I was fighting the fact that they were giving me a number in this cult. I felt so ashamed, I felt so bad, traumatized. But so I was like I don't need a number, please take me out of this. I don't have a photo because they wanted to make take like a like, a headshot of like, so they can put it on my resume or whatever, and I fought this so much, but my, my ex will always use it as an ultimatum, so I'll end up doing it like, basically, if I don't do it he'll break out with me type of situation or like.
Speaker 2:like, besides the fact that I was going to hell for not doing what I was told it, it was always. They always will tell you you either go to hell because that's the new heaven, you need to do what they say, you need to obey and so it's really like, and to me that was kind of I'm not that dumb to feel like.
Speaker 2:I'm going to hell, because I know they don't tell me where I'm going. But I guess, adding to the ultimatum that my ex was putting on there, kind of like, I made me do that. But, um, once you join, uh, they give you a number, um, and then now it's time for you to recruit and do other things you know, and, and one of my jobs as a volunteer was interpretation, so their services are extremely long, like once you join you had to go to their service, the real service, um like physical no, I mean, it's all it's all virtual, it all happens.
Speaker 3:It's just not a bible study, you know, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's actually like if you're going to service in a regular church. I didn't do that and so, yes, because you're only allowed there once you graduate, and so is the guy is lean Manhee, whatever his name is. I forget, I don't want to remember it. What is?
Speaker 3:Lee Manhee.
Speaker 2:Is that guy doing service in Korea? So then we have a Korean person translating it to English and I was translated it to everybody in South America and in Central America in Spanish and I will have my both of my Bibles and it was translating life by the time I finished and it was three hours sometimes by the time I like finish, I will be so tired and exhausted that I didn't want to do anything else.
Speaker 2:But then I will have to teach all the back like somebody that was getting recruited. They would make us learn the parables Through and through. We would have competitions to see who knows it to the dot. It was basically like being a slave to this cult my whole life. I breathed that every time, Even when I would go on vacations.
Speaker 3:That was like terrible got you I told him about the vacation I went to el salvador and like they were like kevin, you gotta that's the devil. Like vacation was yes family was the devil if you're, you're choosing family over god I remember going he who does not hate his family. You see the verses they use he who hates his family. No, the one who loves God hates his family. You know how that verse, but that verse is interpreted that you need to love God so much that you say no to.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Like if your parents are saying like trying to pull you from God, you have to say no to your family Right, choose God. But they're saying Like if your parents are saying like trying to pull you from God. You have to say no to your family, right, but they're saying like, and then they use it in that context as well. But they're saying now, your family is the ones pulling you from God and you're letting them.
Speaker 1:That's how the devil uses. So, Kevin, at this point, how far?
Speaker 3:and you can answer also this how far were you into what was your next step? Uh, as far as you were like, how far did you make it? I was doing the the 12 month course. Right, yes, so I was almost done with the parables.
Speaker 3:So that's like the beginner class, so there's three classes there's three sections, right, yes, intermediate, yeah, intermediate yep, so the parables is the first thing I was in like I don't know if it was almost done, but I was in like 15, so I was talking about a part of revelations and and you know, the scroll. He can't he ate the scroll I knew about the, the one who overcomes. Yeah, new servant john, how, um, there would be someone before him, his, uh, what's it called? His rod.
Speaker 2:I forgot I, I decided to forget everything I like I had to get therapy.
Speaker 3:So yes, yeah, but yeah, basically, um, there's there's, when there's light, there has to be someone before the light, something like that. They always used previous stuff to basically show that this is how god works. Right, god works in the in a specific way, which is um, also, I I kind of threw everything away too so you didn't.
Speaker 2:You never took the final test for the parables because you had to take a final test to pass to the next level. Okay, and so you they will until you pass it, so you can pass to the next level.
Speaker 1:So is the 12 month course? Is that the? How do I say that? Is that like, once you graduate, that's the graduation process.
Speaker 2:The graduation that's deeper. Oh no, I'm sorry, the graduation will be at the third part of the course, like once you complete the three parts and you literally will go on. So this is the first part. Yes, course, like once you complete the three parts and you literally will go. So this is the first part yes, that's what he made it, to nothing, I mean after that.
Speaker 2:So this is because to answer your question I don't think you'll answer the question as far as that hierarchy goes, and so if you would have made it to the third level, because during the intermediate you'll find out that, like they started talking about in the bible, israel is not like the north and the south, that like that is north korea and that in that, actually everything that they say that happened in jerusalem, all the stories that we do know and they're true, they say all of that didn't happen there, that happened in north korea and south korea, when that's where, when the bible talks in revelation about the separation of two lands and one, that that was north korea and south korea and that christ appeared to man that his name lee, and so, um, and that he, he talked to him personally, so that lee had talked to him that he was a prophet, and so after that he starts creating, because he wants to, he ate the scroll, and he starts preaching to everyone.
Speaker 2:So then he finds all these people and I don't remember this part of the Bible, but somewhere in Revelation there is the elders, and so there is a hierarchy to the elders and it's literally like a circle and then these people, and so they will appoint to a Korean person, and these people is, and so they will appoint to a Korean person. So, basically, every member of the, every person on the Bible, was a Korean person in real life.
Speaker 1:And not in the Middle East.
Speaker 2:Yes, like, for example, like John the Baptist was like if there was somebody else in there, it would be some other Korean name. So it will be a bunch of like. They will actually show you pictures of the people and basically you go from, I, I guess, praying or like knowing the bible, to now you're idolizing these people because you get brainwashed. To be honest, at that point I was watching netflix what the what's the what's the service? Because I didn't want to hear it. So I don't know the names. I never learned anything.
Speaker 2:At this point I kind of was like, hey, I don't want to interpret anymore. Like this is really tiring, can I get another job? And that's when they put me in recruiting, like to do everything. But yeah, that was like. So basically the hierarchy goes according to that. So there is the men's department leader, which is the main guy, and actually my ex became that. I mean, he became right under him and then he has a whole cell group and that cell group has to basically recruit people and you have competitions the people that go the most, the people that give the most money. Mind you, lingha, millions in seven million dollars in korean, and that's all people's money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not like it's going to the church and they will be like once you join the church, every month they will have like um financials and they will show you what all our tithes went into. Mind you, I never gave a penny. I always lied to my essence.
Speaker 2:I was giving it anonymously because I was like, I mean, I don't mind having a church that I believe in, but I didn't believe in this so I was not like going to it was not truthfully like they have sale and everything you could like sell it in and and they will like it will be thousands of dollars they will get and I will be so mad because they would show you everything that they got for the month of October and it would still be like $100,000 and they would be mad.
Speaker 1:So is this like the? What is that called the prosperity gospel? You know, when you like, give so you can get something in return from like the Lord? You heard of that.
Speaker 2:I don't know what it was, but, like the, the first reason why I didn't mind continuing in the cult it was because his mom and him told me that like, look, everything, not everything, is money, like in other churches, and they refer to like the, uh, the, that the word was the, the. I forgot what it's called the water life, free water of life or something like that. In Revelation, in the last page actually of your Bible, they say the word is the free water of life. So basically they made reference to like the reason why they don't charge for the course is because the Bible says that the words to be free and know how, like all these churches that are charged, like telling you to tithe and things like that.
Speaker 2:And so that caught my attention because I'm like how are you all surviving then? Right and so, but once you join, that's the first thing you had to do.
Speaker 3:So I was like y'all are the other churches, wait. So this is are these tithes or are these donations?
Speaker 2:Well, they is the same concept as if you were in a regular church. You got to give 10% of your paycheck. So it is the same concept as if you were in a regular church. You got to give 10 percent of your paycheck yes, and a lot of my best friends.
Speaker 2:I hid a lot, a lot of this from my best friends and everything they knew I was on some kind of stuff, but they didn't know how bad it was and so when I finally decided to quit this, um, they asked a lot of questions and I think one of the ones that I got asked the most was like how were you gonna keep up with this lie, like because they knew I was pretending and I don't really have an answer for that until this day. I don't, I wasn't thinking out to me, I was just living day by day and I was just like but now I'm a little older how old are you at this point? I'm 20.
Speaker 2:I'm in my 20s still I went, yes, uh, mid-20s when this happened Okay and we were together for five years. Out of the five years, three years I was in the Colt.
Speaker 1:Okay, and Kevin, how long was your time period with?
Speaker 3:Mine was 18 and 19, 19, something Right. So yeah, like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like the requirements, basically, when we are so, even when we're when recruiting people, and of course this was so long ago, but we had a whole form that we had to fill in, and it was like A you did this, you reach out to them. B what else? And let's take the next step. You took them to, you taught him a part of all keep signing off, signing off, and then um, when they finally make it to class, then that becomes your fruit and the. You have to have two fruits and something else to get put inducted into the um whatever it's called, I don't know the word but into the headquarters, which will be in korea. And so, yeah, that was like a lot of requirements. I never made it that far because I never claim anybody's fruit and I didn't claim any fruits.
Speaker 1:So, going back to Kevin, you said that at one point you actually wanted to build a connection with God, and one of the reasons was because of that, like, can you like remind us again, like, what were you looking for that attracted you, and then how did you eventually end up like knowing that this wasn't it?
Speaker 3:So you know what enticed me to join this was they help you a lot, like when you're.
Speaker 1:Helping like go through life.
Speaker 3:No, through understanding the Bible.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So, like, imagine like you're having someone that's first of all giving you the lesson, so it's just one person's giving you a whole lesson which is writing drawings, verses, everything set up, and again, these are nice people, very nice people. Not only that, you have other people you're learning with, so it's like a class environment.
Speaker 2:Those are fake and they're fake right. Yes, I was a fake student.
Speaker 1:No shot you see, I told you environment, those are fake and they're fake, right? Yes, I'm a, I was a fake student. You see, no shot.
Speaker 3:I told you wait, because I told you my mother, my accountability partner, I was out here telling her to save herself and she was. I was like are you dumb? She was part of, she was already in it yeah I and I know she snitched on me, and what snitching she wants to go tell the people up there that kevin's going crazy well, she probably did.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, message one of the teams, like kevin's chat, and said hey, y'all please pray for kevin. He's having earthquakes, pray that he comes, that this is the truth and there's no other truth and you just gotta anyways.
Speaker 3:But uh, because my assistant, the assistant is your personal person that helps you grow through your thing right first of all what I think that kind of helped me get out. I've had I had four assistants so they constantly changed because I guess they had so many more people that people had to start shifting. So I had I, yeah, I had four different ones, so I never really had a connection to any one of them, and I guess the last one I had she was so exhausted Because I could see visibly tired.
Speaker 1:Oh, dang, she was.
Speaker 3:And last time when I got out I started feeling bad, but obviously I was mad at the time. But you could see it in her face how much she actually tries and the fact that she has to work a job outside of this.
Speaker 1:And this is like another full time thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they tell you, like you know, there is a few people in there that quit their jobs that you get brainwashed to the point that you quit the jobs and actually like I have different, like freelance work that I do, and things like that. My ex used to be like you need to be off god and stop being off the world. The world is not going to do anything for you, so you need to volunteer more for the church. We need you for interpretation. You need to quit all of that stuff that you're doing extra. Stop being so uh greedy. Like y'all. You think it's about money. I'm like I have so many things. It's not even like that. I want to like do other things too so so how many?
Speaker 1:going back to the planting question, how many people were planted in like a classroom, was like a ratio or did you feel like how many people?
Speaker 3:were? I think it was 50, 50 of women and men, no, no, how many people were fake.
Speaker 2:And as a student, um, in the actual class this is in the little class is is fake once, as in the actual class there will be some fake ones too. Um, but um, I would say not all of us join all the time, but I did have to join, the like if my fruit or the one that I help, I I couldn't claim the fruit if I was a helper, so it would be whoever recruited that person. What do you mean by fruit? Like Kevin would be my fruit if I recruited him.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're considered a fruit. Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:I'll be a branch and then there's a leaf, so the assistant is called the leaf, because that's when you get taught the parable of the seed.
Speaker 3:You get a fruit.
Speaker 2:And yes, and that was actually. You had to learn that in my memory, and we do competitions to see who does it better and who will be more likely to pick somebody.
Speaker 3:The person that recruited me was in my class.
Speaker 2:Yes, because they had to stay with you. Like, you got to go to the class that your fruit goes to and you had to actually, but he wasn't with me, he wasn't my partner, but he just sat there. Yeah, but he just sat there. Yeah, and I took the class twice.
Speaker 1:He forced me to take it twice, my guy was on his second time because he had to, so the guy who led you on he was taking the class again with me. Yeah, because it was a part of the scheme.
Speaker 3:Yes, and you had to stay supportive in case that he was to lead a way or want to do something else, and I'm assuming that he was also there to, so he was an accountability partner for someone else.
Speaker 2:Not only that, they're called the center servers, so it will be the person that teach and everybody that helps the person teach. And so, yes, I mean you're called differently. Once you're in the kingdom, it's called the kingdom. And so I don't know why they were calling them servers, but once you cross you're a center server, and so I'm not sure if he was part of that class, because he would be the person that teaches and somebody that will teach in case that person will not be there or was not there.
Speaker 3:So my class was structured in a way where it was we had assistants, which are the people that help you. So each assistant had probably like five kids in the class maybe a bit more now, because I told you, some of them had to leave and then there was our. We called him pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah the pastor, yeah the pastor. What was the name of the pastor?
Speaker 3:His name was Daniel. It was Daniel. He was an African-American, like I don't know. Maybe he was Texas.
Speaker 2:I remember they never told me where, so you weren't in the Chicago one because both of our pastors were white. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think, yeah, but he would fly around all the time. So then I just thought it was work or something. But then later on they started saying that he was doing the work of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's called the work of God.
Speaker 3:yes, yeah, so he would be the one that comes in. He would give the lessons. No, so first we come in, we talk and then we do worship, which you sing. You do the stuff just like a service, and then he comes in and he does the the lesson, and then, after the lesson, we have reflection. Which is the reflection is you write about what you learned that day, but you write it, and then after that you have a small group.
Speaker 2:You do a small group after, after the lesson oh yeah, you have a small group. You do a small group after the lesson.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you do a small group. Before the reflection yes. So you do a small group.
Speaker 2:To see if you pay attention.
Speaker 3:And then the reflection, and then you pray and then you would leave, but that's just one. After that, then you also have to meet with your personal assistant, and then that's like another hour in some, where it's basically the same dude which is a different your, your assistant, going over the same lesson you just had the day before.
Speaker 1:Oh God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's cause. This is a is the way they part of the brainwashing, yes, and on top of that, like it's so, they're so into this that, like once, once you graduate and you go to the service, you also have a cell group. Now you have a cell group with your leader and then there is a woman's leader right, but you get divided into young adults and women cell.
Speaker 2:And then, because I had a son, I was part of the women's If you were just young and not married, then they also want you to marry somebody in there, because it's better, because they will have the word already right and it will be harder to convince them. And it's crazy because my my ex ex was there and she stayed out. I can't believe that she's waiting. Your ex's ex was there in there too when I joined, when actually I graduated, I had to see her in the in the zoom things, because I knew what she looked like I actually I contacted a dude.
Speaker 3:I took her after the podcast because I had forgot, but, you know, because they didn't tell me anything in the quote about what quote this was right so then, when I did all my research and I found out it was scj, I go on youtube and I look up all the anything that I could find there's not that much on YouTube.
Speaker 3:But then there was a podcast and then, you know, I went to this YouTube channel and, like I DMed them on Instagram, I did everything. And then they responded to me on Instagram with a dude's email and he was like this is the guy that we interviewed. Contact him. I'm pretty sure he would like to help you. And then I did a Zoom meeting with him basically just dumping, everything Right, and he was like he had a similar experience to you. Where he was, his was different. He got tricked in by his girlfriend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, they want you to be on the word and so he was.
Speaker 3:His girlfriend said hey, there's this bible study. Um, let's both be in it. So he decided to do it with her, but this was her second time so she had already been in there before and he was like oh wow, and then he stayed yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's some people say I just don't know why, but I do. I was so happy recently I found out like one of the big like he actually got recognized in korea and they flew him to korea. He was one of, like our leaders at the men's department.
Speaker 2:It was actually because me and my ex and I were having a lot of issues, because, of course, you know, because I wasn't doing it genuinely, he will get mad, and because I made him believe that I was, but I wasn't. And because I wasn't, I wouldn't do everything. So that will cause us to fight a lot and argue. So then, like people will intervene, like people from the cult will intervene and like you know, hey y'all need to get it together. Blah, blah, blah Talk about God.
Speaker 2:And you know, and so, and one of them was this guy and I found out recently that they went to Korea again last year, this year actually and they kind of like put two and two together. I just don't know how that happened. It took so long. But they basically were like this doesn't match what, what the reality is, and they quit. And I was like so shocked because he, he actually tricked his wife into joining into that and she actually like quit, because his sister like she actually quit.
Speaker 2:She was in japan at the time and she quit and she said I'm not doing this, it doesn't sound right. And because her, his, his sister told her, don't join that, don't join that. And she actually was in my class, the sister and she was too, and they ended up both leaving and I was so thankful.
Speaker 1:Um, this year they left how much of this, um, alejandra, do you think is um, so personal and deep question here? So your ex that you're referring to, how much of this? Do you think he was just putting up a persona just to use you and bring you into this cult? Like, did you actually feel that he actually liked you and loved you, or you think he this could have been just, uh, another way to get you on and have you there? Have you thought about that? Because the fact that he has his ex there and then, um, you come in and let's say, you guys, you know, like you guys broke up and you're still there, that sounds like an accomplishment to from the outside in, where he just keeps bringing in his you know, quote-unquote exes and it maybe was never something real yes and um, at the beginning I was like you know, I do think that he loved me at the beginning.
Speaker 2:I do think that, um, he did take a little like it took him a one year and a half for me to find out right. I did say, I did think that his tactics were to make people fall in love with him so that then they didn't have a choice but to stay. No, he had, we had intentions. He was, he had intentions to marry me, like he was going to move in, he was going to propose, we were planning the whole thing and thankfully, one day something happened that it was really damaging and I was so glad that it did and we both were like don't move in because we're not ready. But I do believe that he loved me at the beginning. I think towards the end he was just staying with me just because it will be a lot of work to convince somebody else to join it. But what's really crazy, I will say, is that he has somebody now and she's not in it and they've been together for two years and she's not in it um and so I'm not sure what the difference.
Speaker 2:Um, I so I I'm still cool with my group leader, my small group leader, and so, um he would tell me, he told me that she's not in it, like she's not in in the service and she's not in class but how do you feel about that, the fact that you're talking still to somebody that like basically lie to you and try to use you? Well, this is no him. Oh, that the person.
Speaker 1:Uh yeah, don't you think that's something that you would have?
Speaker 2:yeah I know I I I mean, he's just a good person and I think he's still he's. He goes back and forth like he's he's not 100. He's not 100 in and and I just feel like maybe at some point I can help, little by little we can help and get him out. But he actually uh gets pushed because he does his um.
Speaker 2:Wife is in it his wife is in it and, yes, his wife is actually, was actually in my cell group so and he is just, it's just a mess once you become family. It's like hard, because it's like like it's so crazy and I think, like because I told you it was his mom that got me in it, his dad is in it in and he doesn't have any choice, like I remember one time his dad called me, without him knowing, like my ex-dad called me, and he goes like, basically, in little words, get out, while you can, like I don't have no choice because I'm already married and I, you know the bible tells us not to like divorce or why not? But please just leave, leave and um, you know, I don't know how that ended up, but like how, long in, were you in three years when he told you to get out?
Speaker 2:oh uh. I was like two years when he told me to get out so you, after you graduated yeah, it was after he we both were he actually was in graduated. He graduated too. He they put a cap and gown and everything on you. They're're like light blue.
Speaker 3:I saw it on the internet. Now they're trying to change their perception on the internet because everything on the internet about them is bad. So now they're trying to put stuff at least in the internet, where if you search it up it's like a school, it's like a happy college-type. Look into it. So they're changing, they're always changing.
Speaker 1:that's what I see and it's because of the internet purposes that people actually are catching up to what they're doing, and that's why I felt like it's important to like talk about it, because you you'll never know right unless you hear it.
Speaker 3:And that's how I got out right hearing it on the internet yeah, I think for him, for his dad, was like he could.
Speaker 2:He never had time with his wife. She was always because she was like a mate, she was like a top dog, like she was a top dog and my and my ex became a top dog too, so they all their time was occupied, like if, if one of the foods were having an issue, even if it was a mental health something, um, they will call him and so that he will have to answer at any point. And so like his wife was also always in, like the home office, and she never had time for him. Like never, never. He had to cook. I mean, he liked to cook, but like he never had time to do anything with him, right, so it was.
Speaker 3:It's really like exhausting and I think that's also why, like you know how you you said you felt like you were in there just because and it's because they always kept you busy. Yeah, so you don't have a, you don't even have time to think about what you're doing. Yeah, because you have, you have no time to waste it's like almost like robotic uh-huh, or it's like.
Speaker 3:That's how, that's how I felt, because, like you know, I wasn't a hundred percent in and I didn't finish the course, but I was still doing it because I was giving them the benefit of the doubt because of how nice they were to me, and it was like I didn't believe it, like, but I was still there. And then I look at myself and I'm like why was I still there, like, looking at it, like why am I still here if I didn't believe it? And I did believe. And that's where I'm confused, because I'm like I believed it, but I didn't believe it, but I still gave all my time and effort for this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they pick on like like I mean you have to have some kind of education. They want people that are that are good to learn, and then they have some type of education, at least a high school is that what they target?
Speaker 2:school, yes, yes you have to have. They want you to have a list of bachelors but like they will do something with, like you have a list of requirements that you have to target that kind of people. And, um, I always told myself I'm like I'm going to end this the day he has me out there like could you have a witness, no offense to them, door to door knocking, like that will be the day that I'm gonna be, I'm done. And that was the day I was done. He had me downtown Woodstock, like literally stopping people and getting them into this crap, and I was just like I think that week, the weekend after that, I was like I'm done.
Speaker 1:So up to this point you were all in it like you were doing all of this out of love.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, it was. I didn't believe anything, I wouldn't. And everybody could tell like it's, like this person, that I, that I like my group leader, my small group, leader knew I wasn't in it. He knew my heart wasn't in it.
Speaker 2:He knew that I was doing it for him but um going through the motions yes, and I just I felt like I was just so in love and you know, people, my friends, until this day clown me for it. But you know, I mean I I've a lot of people do dumb things out of love. Maybe I'm dumber than the average people. But yes, I and like and like he might, like kevin mentioned, like you're just so busy that it's just keeping you occupied, that you don't think about anything.
Speaker 3:So yeah, because I'm because and then when you're not busy they give you something else to be busy about. So, like I told you, first it was one class, then it was two classes, and then it was three classes and, uh, social, and then after that I'm guessing I would be it would be three, it would be classes plus the social plus uh plus the service and after, and then this, it's like it's always something more that does seem like a lot and then this is this is outside of your life, right yeah, and then on top of that, like, for example, our classes were friday, saturday and sunday and it was like at nighttime, so it was for four hours where everybody else was out at the movie theaters we were literally there learning, and it was exhausting.
Speaker 2:It was like, oh my goodness, I wanted to be done and I had class on my mom's birthday did you really and did you attend?
Speaker 2:like when we, my family's in miami, when we'll go visit them, he will like we'll have to go and, like my step does, like home office and like while my family were was all having breakfast together, I had to be in there with him. We went on a cruise and well, everybody was eating dinner because we were like 18 friends. We literally were in the cabin watching service in like watching class.
Speaker 1:That's so manipulating.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're like, want to let you go, and I mean I get it as to why they don't even want you to have a free time or free your mind, because they know, you know.
Speaker 3:They know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they know what they're doing. This is wild guys. This is crazy. So, on a deeper level, how do you guys feel now that you went through that experience? What are the emotions? Maybe that you went through the process for both of you guys and we can, we can start with you, kevin, like um, how was that process for you? And I know you know, eventually, share with us that you know you actually became, you know, started following the word of life, the actual book, the bible, god, how was that process of you getting out and then now, how do you feel of you going through that experience?
Speaker 3:my process was differently because, like I said, I talked to I don't remember his name, but I think it was matt and he was basically saying what he had, what you'd had, where it was like he didn't want to do nothing for a year or like no religious stuff, no, nothing he didn't want to hear about god. He said what he did was he played. He wasted a year of his life just sitting playing video games and going out and this is because of the disappointment, or it was because he just wanted his life back.
Speaker 3:He said like he wanted like all the time that he, all the free time that he didn't have for his years in there. He just thought he just took it, I just thought the freedom. I guess he just like was wanting it right and he just didn't. But he didn't do anything. And then after like a year he was like he actually started like reading the bible and he was like he got back into it and he's like he got close and he understood what, what, who jesus was.
Speaker 1:And then he basically his purpose wasn't now, he said, was getting as much people out of it right so telling the people what happened to him and taking them out right and essentially you felt like you went through the same process too mine.
Speaker 3:No, mine was different, because I listened to what he said and I said like attack what my church was actually saying, because I still went to church and I went to the sej. So I was like now I'm gonna like go to someone from our church and I'm I'm now dump it. That was manuel. So I just I just went on, it just attack, attack, attack, learn, learn, learn. Basically what I did in the nscj, did it kind of with here, but obviously I had my freedom, my everything and I learned it with someone I just talked.
Speaker 3:I did this.
Speaker 1:It was everything with without that order right the same amount of like wanting basically finding truth and all the lights that you had. They had tried to.
Speaker 3:Cause what I tried to do was basically go through the classes with him and he was basically saying that everything was, uh, written in a way to talk down on you.
Speaker 2:So every little bit.
Speaker 3:he was like it's some of it's like kind of right, but the way they say it is making you like condescending.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so always.
Speaker 3:Some of it's like kind of right, but the way they say it is making you Like condescending almost yeah. So you always look up to them and you always want them to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's crazy because he mentioned that, because that was kind of my experience when I finally was able. I remember like because service was, I mean, in a regular church, church you go to service for like an hour, maybe an hour and a half, right, this service was like three hours, four hours, so it's like you were there the whole time for the first time. I remember the first Sunday that I had free, I was like I called all my friends. I was like can we go to brunch? I want to do Sunday brunch. And literally that was like the first thing I did, and so we did sunday brunch. But anyways, I didn't even want to say like thank god, like I didn't want to mention god in any type of table form. It's not that I was blaming him, I just was like so confused of like how these people play with like the word of god, so you felt like you had resentment towards God.
Speaker 2:Not necessarily, but I felt like everything will bring everything. God will bring me back to thinking about SCJ Anything God, anything God will bring Because of how you're wired. Yes and so, and I know that he mentioned that his friend wanted to save so many people and I wanted to do the same thing, but I don't know that I was ready.
Speaker 2:I think because, how you mentioned, well, don't you feel like he used you into doing this? People might see this as like I was salty and I didn't want his girl to be. I could care less because I was so detached from the whole situation. I just didn't want her to end up like me because I knew that his new girl okay I didn't want her to end up like me.
Speaker 2:I didn't want because I knew that the other girl had end up like me where you approached her I I attempted to approach her and told her like look, this is what scj is, in case that you get called. I didn't say anything, I just say, in case you ever see scj anywhere, this is what it really is. Basically, I mean, I wasn't saying anything about the guy, I was just like you ever hear about this because, like you said, what if she gets used the same way?
Speaker 2:you know and um, he always say he can only marry the person, somebody that's in the same faith. So I knew that she was gonna end up in it and god knows, I mean it's been a long time last time I heard, but I don't know if she's now in it. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I feel like I did my part there. I wanted to reach out to other people. I did want to reach out to all my pending fruits to tell them. I reached out to a few of them, but I can only do so much, you know. Do so much you know. And so, and they also, once you like, turn on them. They put you all upon a on a powerpoint and they put the plaster picture and like, do not let them talk to you if you see them if it's in, you will be suspended too, or you will be kicked out.
Speaker 2:Do not text them, do not, and I'm pretty sure my picture was plastered there at some point wow, I heard that that happens too, yeah, they didn't everything.
Speaker 3:some sometimes I knew stuff was happening, because the pastor would always like be like guys. Remember that you gotta keep pushing through some people, blah, blah, they're gonna keep coming at you and just keep pushing through. And then I remember when he said we're not a cult, right? Yeah? And I was like, of course, the first thing they tell you is do not Google. Do not Google, do not trust Google.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then that's the first thing you tell me is not to do something. I'm going to do it. So that's how I found out through Google. And it's so crazy because now this all makes sense. I remember we were at my house and when the whole new John and when we found out the name of the guy, um, I googled him. That's the first thing I did. I went in the bathroom and googled him and I got out and I say, and I told him, I said, look, I will be with you and I respect your faith and I'll you continue to do you, I'll continue to be a Christian and we can work it that way. And he's like no, I want the woman that I married to be in my faith. And I was like, okay, so they're like let's call my mom, I think, because I'm also having an airquaste. He pretended to be like confused too, when I know that's that's probably like the fourth time he took that class, who knows when did, when did they tell you that it was lee man?
Speaker 3:he?
Speaker 2:and the third. Yes, okay, they do say his name they do say yes, there are there will say so. I joined the class during the pandemic, but like right before the pandemic, and so he kept in this, made it to cnn and everywhere in the news. He made everyone attend service in person and it was thousands of people and they all got infected and so he went to jail?
Speaker 2:yes, he went to jail for that and so during the times that he was in jail, because he's 92 years old, he was 92 years old at the time and they tell still alive.
Speaker 3:They tell you he's not going to die. That's the thing. Now they switched up the doctrine now where he can die.
Speaker 2:Supposedly they tell you he's not going to die.
Speaker 3:Supposedly the one who overcomes doesn't die. Yeah, I don't know how that meant he's not going to die, but that's because he was a lot younger before, but now they were changing it to. He can die, no, but he doesn't die, because his, his doctrine doesn't die, like his words are always so basically dollar tree version of jesus yeah, like his jesus.
Speaker 2:Is he what they want? Like literally, I felt like the whole time we were either like adoring, like basically all I worshiped was for him and not for jesus right yes, and so because he was the prophet, he was the new john, he was uh, you know, like that's how we always felt.
Speaker 2:Like he felt like I was like hindu or something. Because, like you know, when, like there, I, you know I'm, I don't know the whole religion, but you know how you there's animals involved and other things it literally felt like I mean, is this god ultimately like what?
Speaker 3:is this.
Speaker 2:I was a little confused, like no offense to any other religions, because I think they're all beautiful, but for my personal beliefs it felt like I was another religion yeah, and I, and it was. That was they claim to be christian, but I don't think that is by far not christianity it's not, because then ultimately they didn't.
Speaker 3:They barely talk about jesus, yeah they talk about them.
Speaker 2:That man more than anything.
Speaker 3:They only talk about what jesus says, but not about like, but obviously like parables right but not about who jesus claims to be or jesus's divinity, or how the bible was set up for jesus and how well, ultimately, jesus was the lamb, the one that died for you. They actually never mentioned that. The all the songs that they play, none of them are none of them mention jesus. All the oh yeah, I didn't know that, but then when he mentioned, I was like wow, they don't mention the holy spirit. They mention god's spirit. They don't.
Speaker 2:They don't they actually make you sing the the like words from the bible, so like if there is a phrase like the first word, the word and the word was god and john one one and then so they'll be like you had to, to like sing it. So that was our worship singing the Bible verses all the time, and they didn't even there was no rhythm to them, because you're singing like something that doesn't rhyme, right.
Speaker 3:It's like crazy, because John 1.1 is something they always looked like they always use, because you know God's the word. So that's why we got to study the word. But if you keep reading down, it literally says and that word was made flesh yeah. So God, Jesus is God. Right, that's what John 1 is talking about. Jesus is the divine God who came and was there at the beginning and now, but they don't talk about that.
Speaker 1:You know, hearing from both of those stories and even the last time we spoke, I felt like they have a really good structure and you know, I'm not trying to give them props, but they do to bring people in because they are using, especially if you don't know, the word of God. You can easily be manipulated in that sense because you think that's what you're getting but in reality it's not Right and I think it's very dangerous the way they play with that. Because one thing I pointed out to to the in the podcast um, last time kevin was mentioning things up to maybe like 15, 20, I don't know 30 minutes into you know the podcast, but I was like so kevin, wait where, where does the cold part come in? Because you know it's so nice in my head I was like this sounds like the bible to me.
Speaker 2:I was like so, kevin, wait, where does the cold part come in?
Speaker 1:because you know in my head in my head I was like this sounds like the bible to me.
Speaker 2:I was like are you sure the parables are amazing the way they put them together is so convincing like I was so glad I'm like I would literally like imagine my future, because I did want to learn about god.
Speaker 2:And you know, I grew up like in you know, knowing god, and so you know knowing God, and so you know Christian. And so I was like this is amazing, I'm a man of God and now I'm learning about God. This is all I pray for. And so, because it is, it's so convincing, it's so especially the way displaying Genesis is mind blowing, because I mean, genesis is kind of straightforward, but they go so much in depth and like that's what got me too.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I know that's what I was. I was like when Kevin was speaking last week and I was like this sounds like the Bible to me.
Speaker 3:So you know, and it's because their lessons are good, like in your life, but they're not real.
Speaker 2:Right life, but they're they're not real.
Speaker 3:So every so there's, since it's in your and you think it's good for you because it's not what's bad. It's not bad, but it's set up in a lie to then control you, right, because it's like, yeah, so it's like. Basically, most of the lessons would mostly be like you know, dedicate your time to God or trust God, or this is the church, this is the person. It's not really telling you like it's bad stuff.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:But it's ultimately to control you.
Speaker 1:Right and to keep you in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think to answer also to go a little bit more of like what happened after I was and this I was. I mean, I I think I felt like I hit depression because I was like, you know, god was everything that I needed when I was sad and I no longer felt like I had that and so I was overwhelmed with work and everything and so now I didn't have nowhere to go, you know, and, as crazy as it sounds, I didn't have them. You know, that was the place where I would go.
Speaker 1:You were missing community.
Speaker 2:Yes, myself, people flew here to visit me from Chicago Like they stayed at my house and we'll do a lot of like. They do a lot Especially like because they do target minorities and a lot of like immigrants and, like you know, black people. They kind of like we are known for having more needs.
Speaker 2:And so they will offer. Like, let's say, I remember one of our members couldn't watch service because she couldn't afford a computer and we all chipped in. So, like, they always find a way to like you, you know, convince you that they're there to help. And I think, like their intentions as far as helping you, they are genuine. That part is genuine. But, like, it all comes at a cost and the cost is to stay there. And so I remember, I will never forget, when I quit, his mom called me and told me that I was going to hell. Straight up, like that she said Alejandro, you're going to hell. This is where the truth is and you're living it. You're going to hell.
Speaker 1:And how'd you feel?
Speaker 2:And I answered if any of you and your son put me through this close to hell, I'm ready and I clicked.
Speaker 1:You were being sassy.
Speaker 2:I was just saying like you're gonna tell me where I'm going like who are you, are you god?
Speaker 2:like and and that kind of annoyed me a little bit, because oh a lot that you say that I just feel like I'll never fix my mouth to tell somebody they're going to hell you know and really mean it, because you will say go to hell, right, but like really mean it because the way she said it it was like if I wasn't, if I was like a naive girl or like somebody that like had, like doesn't have the personality that I have, I'll probably be like. That probably would break me, like oh my god, I'm going to hell but I mean, I knew better. But that was like I would have never fixed my mouth to tell that to somebody, to say that to somebody.
Speaker 1:Like right after from both of you guys, there was like hurt in there, you know, because you said you were mad, you said you were pissed. You know People lie to you and try to manipulate yeah but I cut connections like instantly.
Speaker 3:I didn't even talk to them at all, yeah you know that's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:So because, kevin, what he did was like cold turkey, but you felt like you still had relationships and I don't know if you still do with the people. What is? What is your status now? Where are you at with um the cold and then um now that you have your new family, what?
Speaker 2:because you said you, now you yeah go to another church, yeah, so what is that like?
Speaker 1:so, have you fully left. Or you feel like, is there still one foot in, one for out? Or like you feel like you still miss them. What is that like?
Speaker 2:no, I'm definitely. Well, I ultimately deleted everything, so I don't have more access to anything. I don't know what happens in it.
Speaker 1:I think this happened about a year ago um, so it took you some time to fully get out yes, because it's like they hatch, it's like you you're so used to.
Speaker 2:I'm a creature, I have it, and so I don't. When I they change my routine, I get a little bit, you know, I don't. I feel a little bit out of place and so, um, I'm no longer, I deleted everything. Um, I do like I say I kept in contact with that one person, but now if we talk, but we haven't spoken in like I would say over almost a year, but when we did start talking, like we never talked about the church, we would talk about like regular stuff and then he would tell me he's taking a break.
Speaker 2:Or like because, like I said, he wasn't all the way in and maybe I felt like because I felt like he looked up to me from a, like, I guess, professional standpoint, so I felt like I could have some hand in like getting him out. So we'll talk about, you know, I will talk about what he could use his time for instead of being there, you know.
Speaker 1:Have you seen anybody, kevin, from there, or have you, so you could completely cut everybody off? Have you ever seen anybody from there that like doing social media or like, uh, in person?
Speaker 3:so the thing afterwards not, so I stopped going to gsu. So I just didn't see those people, and also those people, well, didn't even go to gsu. So we met up way real.
Speaker 1:I thought they did go to JSU.
Speaker 3:No, he was graduated oh. He was just there to recruit students. So, he was just there. And then, yeah, all these people were random, and then we met up at Emory, so people were completely random from who knows where. And then even when I tried to get out, I remembered everyone's name that was in the Zoom. They don't have instagram.
Speaker 1:They don't have social media. Yeah, um, what about your people?
Speaker 2:everybody um that I know has social media, at least facebook. They do have facebook.
Speaker 1:I don't have facebook oh, so that's why they don't have facebook and like said, everything happens to Telegram.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So basically in my mind I thought everyone was a student at that time. So I was like everyone I could search up on Instagram. I'm going to tell them what I know, but I just literally couldn't find one person.
Speaker 2:And believe it or not. I would say at at least 80 to 85 percent of the people know. They know that it's considered a cult, they know, but you've been so brainwashed that like they don't believe it, and so I remember that new. There is a new series that came out on netflix that is called. I totally forgot what his name, but it was about a cult and I'm pretty sure a lot of people like in the it feels like the same experience. The only difference was that they all lived in the same house but like everything else seemed like everything I experienced um is a netflix I saw one on netflix.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's not the same one, but oh something with the devil, something it's called.
Speaker 2:I totally forgot. I'm sorry, I should have been ready for that, but yes, uh, it's so similar. The experience is so similar to what, once you joined, what it is like to be in a cult because, I feel like people have the wrong misconception of what the cult is.
Speaker 2:Uh, no, a lot of them, but not a lot of people. But I feel like people think that cults are like when you get molested or when you know all those. You know all those things that we hear in the news that it was part of the cold and or, like the pastor has all this woman and that's what makes it a cult. But what makes it a cult is something that takes your life, away from your family, from your daily routine?
Speaker 2:for what makes you you so? So, and so I feel like, because that was me, I felt like this can be a call, because at some point this can be a call, because nobody's touching me, nobody's doing anything to me.
Speaker 2:But no, that is not what a call means. A call means it's something that will take you away from what you care for and what really matters to you, and I understand that God goes first, but I do believe that you can still give time to God and still be a family person and still take care of your responsibilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow. So, by the way, this has been really interesting so far. So what would you tell somebody now that they're listening to this podcast or that are watching watching us, you know, online and on youtube what is something that you know you would tell them to be on the lookout for? Maybe some advice when it comes to something like this. Um, from you guys's experience, is there anything that you would like to share so they can stay away from some of this? Right, because before we made this podcast, we both agreed that that well, all three of us that the reasons we're making this podcast is so you can help people, so people can stay away from cults like this right that obviously they've been hearing and watching how much it has affected you guys in your personal life and how it could actually lead you away from God, right? So what are some of the things that you feel like you know people would need to hear when it comes to that?
Speaker 3:I would. I would say what would be? Um, if you're like looking out for like, if this thing I'm getting into is a cult, I just would say what's the reason you want to even be in this thing? What are you going to commit yourself to? Is it worth it? Also, if you're trying to get closer to God, you should visit a church first, not a Bible study.
Speaker 1:That's a good one.
Speaker 3:Because that's ultimately if I didn't like. Maybe I went to a church, but it's in Spanish, so it's not the same. So I thought that this was my chance. But visit a church in English would probably be my thing or talk to someone in English would probably be my thing Right. Or talk to someone in English about your church Right. It's like, and also Jesus will never force you, or Jesus won't never make you feel bad.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:In those situations it's like that cult made me feel guilt.
Speaker 2:Guilt and shame isn't from god correct god is love they even tell you when you're like giving your title your 10, the bible tells you that give it with your heart. If not, don't give it at all. Right, and so, even to that extent, why learning about him to be on your own, on your own in your own, willing like?
Speaker 2:it shouldn't mean nothing you're forced to or something that's stopping you. I'm a firm believer that you can talk to God at any point, whether if it's in your room or prayed at any time of the day, so you can still have a relationship with God without having to be almost having to do everything they tell you. You're in the military type of deal, you know, and I do feel like that's the only way they can break watch somebody Like. There is no other way that they will be able to do that without following that routine.
Speaker 3:God isn't works.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not performance-based.
Speaker 3:It's not performance and it's like what you follow God by living your life according to what he said, not by constantly like, like learning and then just constantly like giving. I don't know how to, because I don't want to sound bad like it's not you? How much time you give it to him?
Speaker 3:or how much people you this it's like? Are you living what he's saying and are you doing it for the right reason? Are you following him because you love him and because you thank him? Are you following him because you're scared to go to hell?
Speaker 3:Right thank him or you following him, because you're scared to go to hell, right, and that's that's kind of why I feel like we, I would be stuck in there because it was like it's always like scared, because, you know, I I was assuming that at the end of this course, I would basically get my ticket to heaven to heaven right, based off how they were writing stuff well, they call the service heaven. So yeah, so I'm guessing it's that.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's like the kingdom or heaven or yes and then they were kind of structuring it to the point where it was like this is heaven. And I'm right here right, and they will draw it for you they draw everything yeah, everything is drawing so this is, this is heaven, this is, this is the the sea.
Speaker 2:So the sea is all the messed up ugly because you know you can't drink ocean fresh water and then I'm getting out of the sea, but I'm not at heaven not only that, they make like, so if anybody has written revelation before when they, if you read it like, it tells you about, like the monsters and the five heads, and all this and they basically make that out to be. Like you know, if you don't follow this, this is who you're going to be deceived by.
Speaker 3:Like they also will make revelation about your life yeah and when that's not leaving, like the basically like basically these beasts and all the stuff.
Speaker 2:The bad stuff are churches yeah, yes, they call it churches of this, churches of that, and it's everything. And like I remember wanting to, like, listen to hillson united and like all the other songs, and like he will, my ex will turn them off because the bible tells you all of that is like poison. It's called points. They call it poison.
Speaker 3:So any other christian music was poison because any anything that is a little bit contaminated is not pure. Yeah, and what they're giving you is pure, because lee man, he knows the bible to the 100%, not 90, not nothing.
Speaker 2:He knows it 100% Because Jesus talked to him, because he came to South.
Speaker 3:Korea and talked to him Exactly.
Speaker 1:I think these are the important points that we need to share with people. What are the actual truths that the Bible speaks about? Right, jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the son of God. You know, if you have a question in regards to who God is, start looking out for things that even that we're mentioning now, or maybe the way even you felt or you felt, I think it's important to also mention in this podcast, like the truths of what people need to be aware of, because you don't want to get deceived. You know you don't want to get deceived. You know you don't want people to quote-unquote, brainwash you and you not knowing the actual source right and where is this coming from or where are the intentions right?
Speaker 2:and I and I think, like, like I said, after that whole year of me not wanting to know anything about god, um, I think I share this with a lot of people. I was driving and my son was in the back and I was overwhelmed, I don't know. It was a difficult day and I was crying, I was sharing a tear and my son asked me if everything was okay and I said, yeah, it's okay, and he told me don't worry, mama, god sees it all Like. He mentioned God again and it was so random because I haven't done a good job teaching him about God.
Speaker 3:And I know.
Speaker 2:I haven't, so I don't know where he learned that from. To be honest, and for him so random to be like God sees it all out of nowhere was, like so touching to me. And so that was a weekday. That weekend I made in my business. I was like I'm going to church for the first time. I want to go to church. So I told Julio, hey, we're going to church, Get ready on a Sunday. And we went to church. I kind of had already had some churches in mind. Now, mind you, that was a year after I went through therapy. I went through a lot of things to get myself into this place, and so I went to church and out of nowhere, they were teaching Revelation 1, which is actually, once you join the heaven, all they teach in service after you join the actual church the actual cult, I should call it what it is.
Speaker 2:All they teach you about is Revelation. They don't teach about anything else after that. So I was like God. They're teaching revelation One. When I stepped in this real church but I was so relieved because finally, I was listening to the truth, finally it wasn't all these lies and all this stuff that they tried to feed me, and I was like now I'm able to, like you know, replace all the teachings that they taught me and now I'm listening to the truth. So that was.
Speaker 1:I felt like everything was god using my son to get me there, and now the the church that I went to is teaching revelation, which was the one that the actual truth yeah, with the actual truth, and it's when I was what I was having a hard time with so, gotcha, um, I know, I think, another important thing, by the way, for the people that are listening and watching and we all go to different churches, but you know, we also, we all have a similar truth onto what we believe in.
Speaker 1:Now there's things that we might do differently, but you know, again, I think the important part is remember to have a relationship with Jesus, to relationship with God, which is the important part, um, in in all of this right, like you said, it's not a performance-based thing, uh, you can work your way into heaven, um, but you do try to live the life, um that the Bible says for you to live, that Jesus, acknowledging that you know Jesus is the son of God, that he died for our sins and now we are saved because of him. Those are important things that people, if you were trying to get into the walk of life, in the walk of Jesusesus, this is, you know, the path that you need to take. You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I definitely guys.
Speaker 1:This was uh. This has been good. Yes, this has been good. Is there anything else that you would like to share? Uh, in regards to this, um, I felt like this was a really good learning experience for myself. Uh, hopefully, you guys learn, you know, from each other. I know that, you know. I think it was good for you to hear the other side of what was happening. On the other side. You know what I mean of of these issues I actually did something similar to what he did.
Speaker 2:I did youtube, I searched him and they actually, just so you know, they perp. They have a whole team dedicated to report all the YouTube stuff, that like that is talking about them, and so that's what I shared, because I wanted to be completely honest with you that, like you know, hey, they have a team that targets this, and so I was like, but I still was able to find there's other podcasts about it, but I still was able to find there's other podcasts about it, and I was so happy to see that because at that point I hadn't had the courage to speak about it in a platform like this, and so I was glad that other people were doing it.
Speaker 2:But I remember, because I always felt like I'm overreacting for asking for therapy for something like this, but it was a Christian therapy type of deal, so it helped because I felt like my faith crumbled after that, so I felt like I needed more help than just myself in me reading the bible again because everything triggered me.
Speaker 2:And so, seeing that I wasn't the only one that had to seek therapy because in those podcasts let's talk about how they seek therapy I was glad that I'm like okay, I'm not overreacting this is actually something that I'm dealing with, and I felt like I knew that my life wasn't gonna stop being difficult I mean as all of us have issues.
Speaker 2:And then I needed to get closer to god again, because he is my reason, he is the reason why I'm still here, he is the reason why he wakes me up every day, and I knew that I needed him to be able to, like, fight everything in this world and, like you know, he was my protection, and so I wanted to get back to him.
Speaker 1:A question that came to my head for you was maybe some of the reasons that you needed therapy or was maybe it was hard to get out or, you know, kind of kind of get to the next point in life. Is it because? Did you feel guilty for what you were doing? For you know, leading basically you were leading other people into something that's not the truth, right? Did you feel guilt for that?
Speaker 2:yes, I felt like I was just as bad as them. I felt so guilty for what I did and I felt like I wanted to hide that guilt because I felt used into doing that. But I also I'm a grown up and I know that I made my own decisions, so I wanted to. I was holding some accountability, like I know what I did. So I mean, I try to get as many people out of it, but you can only do so much, and so that is the reason I felt like I wanted to get that guilt out of me.
Speaker 2:I also, it was Christian therapy, so I wanted to hear a little bit um, and this was towards the end of me not wanting to do anything with God, but but you know, I wanted to start hearing about God again and so, yeah, that's the route that I took. I felt like I needed that.
Speaker 1:Good, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you as well, man. I think that should be acknowledged because, I mean, I can only imagine what that was like. You know, we all have our struggles, we all have our issues, all have our issues but by you even being here you being here and sharing your story, you guys are doing something to help other people uh, hopefully not get into. You know these type of uh ordeals and you know the cults and and kind of leading people to the wrong path. You know what I mean because, for whatever reason, whether they're gullible, maybe they need, um, something in their life that's missing, and you know they find them in a weak moment and things just happen. So I appreciate you for sharing, appreciate you for sharing. Kevin, thank you, alejandro, thank you for being here. Oh, this is great everyone. Thank you guys.
Speaker 1:If you guys have been listening, don't forget that. You know you can listen to this podcast on all the audio platforms. You got Spotify, amazon music, apple podcasts and also you can watch it on YouTube and in 4k. Uh, we're almost reaching close to 5,000 subscribers and we're close, really, really close, to hitting a million views on the channel. So I appreciate everyone who's watching and listening. Uh, I hope that you guys are enjoying these podcasts of real stories and you know real people. I feel like sharing these stories can help anybody out, whether you're going through something or maybe not even join a cult like this, and so you can find the real truth. So, thank you guys for watching. As always, take care of each other. Peace and love, familia. See you guys on the next one. Thank you guys.